Thursday, June 4, 2009

The Death Knell of the Oranges

The US/EU sponsored socialist revolution in Ukraine has come full circle. With elections coming, the president of Ukraine and the stooge of the IMF, Yushenko, is facing political extermination. With less than 5% of the popular vote, his party may be disqualified....from king to pauper, having destroyed only one economy.

The fight is between the still Washington backed Timoshenko, a populist socialist and self made (as in she self made off with the Russian transit gas) gas princess billionaire, to the tune of 12 billion in 5 years of public service, vs Yanukovich, the pro-Russian capitalist with a tarnished reputation. Timoshenko may just win, even though her disastrous price ceilings and privatization reviews helped destroy local production and international investment....but Washington and Brussels love her dreamy eyes.

But now, with all the infighting, corruption and anarchy of the Ukrainian Oranges highlighted against the back drop of total economic collapse, a new element, a new challenge has appeared on the scene, rising like a phoenix from the ashes: Leonid Kuchma, the former president whom the Oranges replaced.

What ever the past faults of Kuchma, and there were quite a few, the short term golden boy of the West and long term ally of Moscow, they pale in comparison, under a modern light, to the recent history of Ukraine's present masters.

Was there corruption under Kuchma? Certainly. Did the oligarchs hold too much power? Absolutely, but nothing has changed but the batch of oligarchs. However, let us remember that the last year of Kuchma's rule Ukraine's GDP growth rate topped at 13% and had been rising steadily. Inflation was model low compared to all of eastern Europe. The economy was stable and trade with Russia was exploding. Gas disputes were mostly minor and deliveries never broken for DC's political gain or games. Russia and Ukraine were close to an economic union that promised to raise the standards of living of all peoples, especially Ukrainians who lacked behind Russians by as much as 50%.

Kuchma came to power by ousting, in elections, Leonid Kravchuk, the Western idol who helped split the Soviet Union, not simply get rid of the Communist party. He also allowed full exploitation of Ukraine by the Wall Street/London crowd.

Kuchma came just in time to save Ukraine from civil war between the Orthodox and pro-Russian east and south (60% population and 80% of the industry) and the agrerian and poor Catholic west. He settled the issue of Crimean independence and brought stability. All those issues are now at the forefront again in Ukraine and can only lead to war.

if Kuchma does run, there is littel that anyone in the Orange puppets can do to stop him or defeat him. There is still hope for Ukraine.

23 comments:

islam o' phobe said...

There was an interesting panel discussion in Russia Profile two months ago about Ukraine's status re NATO.

Google 'Russia Profile Weekly Experts Panel: NATO at Sixty – Mission Implausible?'

Here is an excerpt from the most interesting contributor James George Jatras, Deputy Director, American Institute in Ukraine, Director, American Council for Kosovo:

"Advocates of Ukraine’s accession to NATO have yet to confront the tough questions. First, nobody has yet explained where the billions, or perhaps tens of billions of dollars will be found to bring Ukraine’s military up to NATO standards. Such a transition would involve scrapping almost all of Ukraine’s current Soviet hardware and replacing it with NATO-operable equipment. It’s a bill Ukraine’s beleaguered economy can’t support, and U.S. taxpayers, hardly having an easy time with it either, shouldn’t support.

Secondly, a heavy majority of Ukraine’s citizens are opposed to NATO membership. One would think that for an alliance that is supposed to be a champion of democratic values that would be dispositive of the matter. Ukrainians’ reasons for opposing NATO are quite rational. A serious crisis over an attempt by “orange” forces to drag Ukraine into NATO would rip apart the fragile unity of a country where a very large part of the population feels much closer to Russia than to the NATO countries. Also, unlike earlier expansions of NATO, Ukraine’s accession would be regarded as a direct threat to Russia’s national security. Paris and Berlin are clearly focused on what might be possible countermeasures by Moscow. Kiev and Washington need to focus a bit as well.

Finally, more than anyone else, the Ukrainians need to ask what real price might be demanded for their contribution to NATO. Sending Ukrainian soldiers back to Iraq? Maybe someday to Iran? Of course, today Washington’s center of attention is Afghanistan. Ukrainians’ last involvement with that country was a few years ago, but I suspect it’s an experience few would be eager to repeat."

Piotr P. said...

It is interesting how Russians insist on Ukrainian love and get upset if it doesn’t flow their way; - there’s really something rather homosexually Freudian in this. For centuries, Russia pillaged, burned, plundered, and raped Ukraine (or Little Russia, as the “Great Russians” tend to call it disparagingly) – starting form the VII-century occupation of then independent Ukraine and killing of her most revered national hero and protector and into the famous Golodomor (forced starvation) of the Ukrainian peasants in the 1920-s and 30-s, which murdered over 20 million of the country’s independent farmers and members of their families, while countless others were sent to concentration (labor) camps for anything from 10 to 25 years. Now, Russia feels well justified middling in Ukrainian internal affairs, from its natural gas supply policies to national elections (where Russia bets heavily on one Yanukovich – a former convict (sentenced to 5 years in prison for fraud, tax evasion, and extortion)). There’s little wonder why, without exception (even dictatorial Belarus refuses to accept Russian currency (so called ruble) for payments) all Russian neighbors are ready to join ANY political or military organization that would protect them from looming Russian invasion (either political, like in Ukraine, or military, like in Georgia). This blog seems to enjoy spreading half-truths and pure lies about Russia and Russians, which I know well (for I am a Russian, and I had spent over 50 years in that poor (in so many ways) country before leaving for the Land of the Free).

Piotr P. said...

This is actually a very good blog in the sense that it shows to the outside world, which still harbors a laughable preamble of Russia being logical, friendly, and peaceful, the true spirit and mindset of a typical Russian – that of a paranoid, hateful, obsessed with world dominance, spiteful, and brutal invader. I hate to admit it, but the Republicans (Pres, Reagan in particular (just for the record, I am a registered D, so I admit Reagan’s foresight rather grudgingly) have got it right – the US can only detain Russian aggression by force, NEVER by friendship or kindness or fairness, for, as it was said famously by a Russian Czar “Russia has no permanent friends but her own Army and Navy”.

Stanislav said...

@Piotr P.

Wow Piotr, a giant paragraph of pure crap...amazing, you never even need page breaks.

Russia pillaged Ukraine...yes, Mr.Selfloathing Russophobic Russian, let us examine the pillage. Outside the fact that Ukraine and Russia are one and same people, same religion same history, it was your precious Lithuanians and Poles who invaded Kieven Rus and annexed what is now Ukraine but had been central Kieven Rus. It is your precious West that brought Ukraine "civilization" with the sword and torch. Or what, you were not aware of the numerous yearly revolts against Western rule in Ukraine?

Were you not aware of the voluntary union of the East Bank Dneper Cossaks with the Moscovite Tsars? Or that Kieven Rus' first city and capital was Novgorod or third city was Ryazan?

Who rebuilt Kiev from the little village it was under Polish rule? Oh, the Russian state. Odessa? The Russian state. Lughansk? Who built the industry there, since the Poles destroyed any but farming?

I doubt you have, but have you ever read Gogol, a Ukrainian writer? Did you ever bother to read Tarac Bulba? For what were the Zeprochina Cossaks dieing? They died for Holy Russia and on their mortal wounds thanked God that they could have the honour of shedding blood for our land.

Ukraine lives in fear of Russian invasion? You are an absolute liar. Twenty percent of the Russian contract military is Ukrainian citizens...oh did not know that, did you? Eastern Ukrainains, like many in my family, dispise the West for putting the Oranges on them and destroying their economy with imported socialism. Russian ally Kuchma had 13% GDP growth, Western puppet Yushenko drove it to 1% and a double digit inflation rate. What do you know? Nothing.

The most popular TV stations in east and south Ukraine are Russia, which is why Yushenko has been hard at work to ban them.

The Holodmir? Oh, I love the fact that those who push that crap are western Ukrainians who were under Polish rule at the time and many were sitting in Polish Fascist concentration camps, since Poland was the 2nd fascist state of Europe, 1926. Did not know that either, I bet, oh great History "buff".

The worst of the hungers, all due to Soviet (a nice Western import) collectivism, was in Armenia, followed by Krasnodar oblast, Stavrapol oblast, Crimea oblast and Lughansk oblast...can you even find those on a map?

My own family lost a pomestia, a large farm given by the tsar to my great grand father for combat heroism, to the Ukrainian Soviet authorities. They never blame the Russians for it, why? Because they know who stole it, the Soviet Internationalists.

Georgia, you propagandist, murdered thousands of civilians. You and the American media are the only ones still backing the "Russians hit first" crap. The UN and European commissions and even former Georgian defense minister as well as former foreign minister have all admitted that Saakashvili did it and the two former ministers flat out said he did it under DC's orders....massacring women and children, all of whom were Russian citizens, oh you loather of your own blood.

Does your blood burn in your veins from your hatred for it?

Even the BBC, the government mouth piece of the UK leftists has admitted it. But you continue spilling your lies and doing the Devil's work and I will continue to shame you with the truth.

Reagan, if you did know anything, said he never had anything against the Russian people, only against the Soviet system and welcomed friendship that he received and Reagan, if you leftist knew anything, is very respected in Russia. Are you upset with Russia that it threw away the leftist mentality? The failed corruption of the soul that your side pushes all over the world?

It is you leftists that push war. Name one war that Russia started on its own in history....waiting...come on, show us how we are "evil". Show us one war where we attacked without direct provocation by an enemy or where we did not step in to defend an ally.

Stanislav said...

--NEVER by friendship or kindness or fairness, for, as it was said famously by a Russian Czar “Russia has no permanent friends but her own Army and Navy”.--

Why do you not finish the quote? Or is the rest inconvenient to your socialist half truth attacks?

First, Mr. History "fluff" er "Buff", it was said by Alexander II to his young son, Alexander III.

“Russia has no allies but her own Army and Navy, all others either fear her or covet her”

His other famous saying was:
“It is better to abolish serfdom from above than to wait for it to abolish itself from below”

Stanislav said...

--– the US can only detain Russian aggression by force, NEVER by friendship or kindness or fairness,--

Yes, after all, it was Russia who bombed the Serbs in Bosnia to defend the Bosnian islamics. It was Russia who armed the Croats who ran concentration camps and brought back their exiled Nazis and gave them parades and who in operation Storm massacred thousands of Serbian civilians.

It was Russia who backed the Macedonian Albanian islamic jihad and drove in buses into the encirclement to save the Albanians from destruction.

It was Russia who bombed Serbian open air markets, bridges, trains, a maternity ward and other area, even a news network.

It was Russia who backed a homocidal little dictator who rocket and artillery attacked a small sleeping city after just the previous day promising them talks and peace.

It was Russia who bombed Iraq for 10 years. It was Russia who invaded Iraq. It was Russia who invaded Afghanistan.

It was Russia who armed the Turks who even today massacre the Kurds.

It is Russia that forces the Israeli Jews to stand still while Islamics bomb them.

It is Russia who massacred thousands of civlians in Somalia.

It is Russia who with a military alliance encircles America, puts short range ballistic sylos on her border and over throws her allies while using NGOs to try to start revolts and who backed an Islamic jihad in America....oh wait, no, that is not Russia, now is it? That is America, America under three Socialist Rulers: Clinton, Bush Jr and now Obama.

aliquis said...

@This blog seems to enjoy spreading half-truths and pure lies about Russia and Russians, which I know well (for I am a Russian, and I had spent over 50 years in that poor (in so many ways) country before leaving for the Land of the Free).@
.
Mr P, Peter P. I wouldn't venture as far as to label this blog as 'spreading half-truths' etc. What you see here are opinions of the contributors. You may either choose to disaree and present a reasonable argument - without venom - or lurk for a while until you learn who the participants are and what they stand for.
.
As any other country, Russia has gone through 'interesting times'. Also, as any other country - especially a big and poweful country - it has done things that are, in *hindsight*, reprehensible. As the US of A did. The point in case is the plight the Iroquois people suffered under generals Sullivan and Clinton mentioned on this blog. Or Andrew Jackson's removal of Creek, Choctaw, Seminole, Cherokee etc nations. About 4,000 Cherokees died during the "Trail of Tears". 25m acres of land was given to the whites and was used for slavery.
.
I appreciate you may have some dislike of Russia that may be a carry over from previous experiences. However, it is always a good practice to be, if not impartial, at least open minded enough to at least to try to see other person's point of view.
.
At the moment, the way I see it, we in the "Anglosphere" grew too complacent and arrogant. Our politians turned into the 'Ruling Class' that spews propaganda with MSM to convince people that everything is peachy and to, in the end, preserve their welth no matter what, Funny enough, it sort of in accord with Minsky's 'stability' theory.
.
I am not a religious person (may be a bit of Norse...) and not ideological one either. I also do not agree with everything said here but I do have respect for the participants. I can also say when I am being lied to by the government and the media, these days it's become so crude, it's painfully obvious, especially here in the UK and the US.

Stanislav said...

@Piotr P

--This blog seems to enjoy spreading half-truths and pure lies about Russia and Russians, which I know well (for I am a Russian, and I had spent over 50 years in that poor (in so many ways) country before leaving for the Land of the Free).--

Ehhe, 50 years? Funny, your own profile says you are 41...so on which are you flatly lieing?

Piotr P.

* Age: 41
* Gender: Male
* Astrological Sign: Aquarius
* Zodiac Year: Sheep
* Industry: Biotech
* Occupation: professor
* Location: Cleveland : OH : United States

About Me

Nothing much to say. I am a Russian in America and love it.

Who is the sexiest actress alive?
Interests

* Kinky sex
* biology
* history


I'll see what you answer when I get up tomorrow morning...good night, not that I expect you to address any of my answers to your lies, you just spout out new lies.

hamilton x said...

Mr. Mishin you easily overcome the Piotr P or whatever he is because he cannot deny the resurgence of Russia no matter how much he shakes his silly little fists at you. Relax.Continue to make your inspiring posts.Piotr is a maggot content to live in decay. Piotr(the "registered D") is inspired by San Francisco. Mr. Mishin is inspired by Moscow.Easy choice for me.

BULL said...

Truth. There are Americans who understand these shameful affairs. Apparently we are powerless. Freedom is a state of mind despite tyranny.

Slavabez said...

Stanislav,

Good retorts to Piotr P. I support many of your comments, especially concerning Ukraine and about Reagan. You are absolutely right about Reagan. He was anti-communist/anti-Soviet, but NEVER anti-Russian. He knew the difference. I personally saw a signed photocopy of his letter of condolences to the Tanya Zelensky family in 1983. She was a vivacious young Russian-American, proud of her heritage, who was murdered by a deranged jerk in Vermont, who thought she was "a Russian spy." This was soon after flight KAL 007 was shot down, and headlines in US papers said "Russian Barbarians" and other such racist filth. In the letter, President Reagan went out of his way to distinguish between being Russian and being Soviet. He was a tough cookie against tyranny, but a very compassionate human being.
Clinton and Bush2 screwed over Russia big time. Obama's advisors don't inspire much confidence either. Let's see what happens.

Vyacheslav Bezusov

Piotr P. said...

I cannot deny the obvious, which is that the US is no God or Easter Bunny – we have done a lot of bad things as a nation over the last 200+ years; besides the plight of the native Indians, one could mention the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, the Cuban affair, the Panama affair, support of muss murderers in Nicaragua, Afranistan, and Zimbabwe, and so on and so forth. And what about the secret (and shameful) sterilization of the Negro nation? What about the policy of segregation in the South all the way into the sixties. I KNOW all that about my country. Yet, EVERY TIME we’ve corrected our ways, righted the wrongs, apologized (the Indian nations within our nation as well as the politically correct (and totally misguided) policy of affirmative action are just two (of many) examples), while Russia has NEVER mended its broken relationship and promises but by more force and intimidation. Russian renaissance, Hamilton? “Piotr is a maggot”? Which rock have you crawled underneath from? Ask about Russian resurgence of my poop mother and father, who are both living in a small town in the Urals, who, after working for 40+ years, draw a combined monthly pension of 210 US dollars, with prices for food and clothing at or above those in America? Ask Russian men dying before 60. Ask 718,000 Russian orphans (statistics for 2007 – the height of the so-called Russian economic boom – from the official Russian Health Ministry web-site). There is a reason for the “Russian mail-order bride” phenomenon, you know (that is the dire economic situation in the country and no prospects whatsoever for the young), when TENS OF THOUSANDS of young Russian females bail out of the country, ask why the population of Russia declines by 1.5 million EVERY YEAR. Statistics is a funny thing, Sir, for it is impossible to spin. Ask why an average salary in Russia is $450 / month, while a gallon of gas costs, on average, 110 rubles (almost $4). I can understand Stanislav’s zeal (it wouldn’t surprise me if his work is sponsored by one organization with bloody hands located at the Dzerzhinski Square in Moscow; you know what I am talking about, Stas, don’t you?), but for an American to hate his own Motherland to such a degree that he/she would tie his hopes to a Goddless, aggressive, repressive (to its own citizens and neighbors) country is truly shameful. Ask how many dissidents were murdered on the streets of Moscow and St. Pete. Ask how much each and every policemen on the street and bureaucrat in the office has to be offered in bribes to achieve ANYTHING in Russia. Stas is EXTREMELY disingenuous in his blog here, and it is really a shame.

Stanislav said...

@Piotr P.

Ahh Piotr, you and your russophobic "facts" and "statistics" prove you to be a troll and nothing more.

Lets destroy them as usual.

First, as far as salaries go, they matter only to the level of price and cost. One example, if you bothered with economics, is that Russian's pay much lower taxes and own their homes, thus a large part of the high American income is not needed, since 1/4th of the worker's income to 1/2 in the US goes to taxes and mortgage or rent will take another 15-30%.

Second, you are again, lieing or ignorant, price as high as America? Hahaaa, when have you been to a store in Russia? Never, I am sure. A loaf of REAL bread, not the paste in America, costs 10 rubles, that is 30 cents. Pasta (good quality), 4kgs costs 180 rubles,that is about $6, so that is $6 for 8.8 pounds. Eggs cost 20 rubles for 10...and keep in mind this is all Moscow prices, always elevated and should be compared to equavalent cities such as NYC, London and so on.

Russia's average income is not $450 and has not been so since Yeltsin. It is over $1,000 now and it matters what can be bought. I just bought a very high quality pair of leather shoes, as good as the Portugees leather shoes beside them, for 1,010 rubles, that is about $30. Besides shopping in Walmart, where are you going to buy a pair of shoes in America tha costs that and is real leather...oh except the Chinese crap is not real anyways and will probably rot your foot off. Yes, I have been to American Walmarts before, trying to find something American made for souviners...what a pointless mission.

--I can understand Stanislav’s zeal (it wouldn’t surprise me if his work is sponsored by one organization with bloody hands located at the Dzerzhinski Square in Moscow; you know what I am talking about, Stas, don’t you?), but for an American to hate his own Motherland to such a degree--


Sorry troll, I do not work for anyone...oh and "Russian" born hypocrite, how you hate your motherland, your people and spill nothing but lies and 15 year old half facts to defame and spread hatred. You are exactly what you accuse others off...well you did admit you are a Leftist, so what a surprise, HYPOCRITE.

--Ask how many dissidents were murdered on the streets of Moscow and St. Pete. --

When, troll? Under the Soviets. Here is a fact for you Troll Hypocrite, the number of journalists killed under Putin were 15, about 6 of which were his allies. The number of journalists killed under Yeltsin, who was by America's and your Leftist Clinton's words: a great democrat: THIRTY! And none were his allies.

Go chew on that leather, in your hole...with your public paycheck. You know what I mean.

Vuyko Z. said...

@Stanislav "Outside the fact that Ukraine and Russia are one and same people, same religion same history"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ukraine is not Russia, and hopefully never will be a part of it again.

As for the ethnic Ukrainians, your statements shows complete disrespect
towards our culture and identity. No, we are not Russians. We might have
common origins i.e. Kievan Rus, but that was 1000 years ago. It is like
saying all of us were apes at some point in time.

Yes, Kievan Rus was invaded by Lithuanians and Poles, but whoever had
the spirit moved to steppe and eventually formed Zaporozhian Sich, which
was essentially a republic with freedom and elected leaders. That started
in XIVth century, and it is not the invaders that killed this republic,
it's so called "friends", and namely Catherine II, the Russian Emperess
in XVIIIth century. Things did not improve in XIXth century, when Ukrainian
written language was banned (see Valuyev Circular and Ems Ukaz of Alexander
II). Yes, those were Russians, not Soviets who opressed Ukraine. Not that
Soviet's were any better with their famine genocide (Holodomor), and
russification.

Visit Lviv, you will find Russian Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox
Church, Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church,
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, Armenian Cathedral, Jewish
Synagoge, Muslim Mosque,... should I continue?

But according to you (and unfortunately for many Russians) we are "one and
the same people".

Mr. Mishin, it is very sad that you and many other Russians do not
recognize diversity and the right of other countries or ethnicities
for self-determination.

Vuyko Z. said...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Stanislav Oh, the Russian state. Odessa? The Russian state. Lughansk?
@Stanislav Who built the industry there, since the Poles destroyed any but farming?
@Stanislav I doubt you have, but have you ever read Gogol, a Ukrainian writer?
@Stanislav Did you ever bother to read Tarac Bulba?
@Stanislav For what were the Zeprochina Cossaks dieing?
@Stanislav They died for Holy Russia and on their mortal wounds thanked
@Stanislav God that they could have the honour of shedding blood for our land.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is right, shedding blood for your land. Has nothing todo with Sich
or Ukraine. Little by, little the Empire took freedoms from cossaks and
at the end eliminated their community.

In the retrospect, the Treaty of Pereyaslav did not bring cossaks
anything good.

Vuyko Z. said...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Stanislav Ukraine lives in fear of Russian invasion?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not in fear, as some of the spirit still remains,-- mostly in western
Ukraine though. Kiev is also strongly anti-Russia. In case of war Ukraine
will fight, even though may not be in large #s.

Vuyko Z. said...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Stanislav Eastern Ukrainains, like many in my family, dispise the West
@Stanislav for putting the Oranges on them and destroying their economy
@Stanislav with imported socialism. Russian ally Kuchma had 13% GDP growth,
@Stanislav Western puppet Yushenko drove it to 1% and a double digit
@Stanislav inflation rate. What do you know? Nothing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same way many dispice Russia, and anything associated with it. As for
the economy, it is easy to make GDP growth on subsidized gas. Try to do
it on market gas prices with the energy inefficient equipment.

Ukrainian economy is in shambles, and that is a big issue.

Not that Russian will be any good with further declines in commodities.

Vuyko Z. said...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Stanislav I love the fact that those who push that crap are western
@Stanislav Ukrainians who were under Polish rule at the time and many
@Stanislav were sitting in Polish Fascist concentration camps, since
@Stanislav Poland was the 2nd fascist state of Europe, 1926.
@Stanislav Did not know that either, I bet, oh great History "buff".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am from western Ukraine, and you can read whater the fuck you want,
but my grandma was sent to Siberia by Russian NKVD, before she spent
weeks in Lviv's prison sleeping on the concrete floor. All (ALL)
the teenagers from her village were executed. Yes, Russian NKVD,
since nobody in Western Ukraine calls them "Soviet NKVD". It is easy
to differentiate,-- the language that sounds to you the same, sounds
to us very different. You can fool westerners with you "soviet" vs.
"russian" propaganda, but you know, and I know that the former head
of Russia was (is) in the same business as NKVD.

Stanislav said...

@Vuyko Z.

Oh where to start. Ukrainian village in Lvov...him and what year was that? Lets see, Lvov, until annexation by the Soviet Union, was a Polish city and very few Western Ukrainians there. You sure didn't seem to mind cleaning out the Poles and taking their property to create your Western Catholic Ukrainian capital.

--Yes, Kievan Rus was invaded by Lithuanians and Poles, but whoever had
the spirit moved to steppe and eventually formed Zaporozhian Sich, which
was essentially a republic with freedom and elected leaders. --

Not quite. It was a mixture of run away serfs from various Russian kingdoms. Cossakia as a subculture did not evolve until the 16th centuary, the Poles invaded in the 12-13th. Cossaks were on all the perefery of the Rus lands, on the Don, Terek, throughout Siberia and so on. Your Western Ukrainians have nothing to do with Cossaks, since you lived under the Austro-Hungarians at the time.

--That started
in XIVth century, and it is not the invaders that killed this republic,
it's so called "friends", and namely Catherine II, the Russian Emperess
in XVIIIth century. Things did not improve in XIXth century, when Ukrainian
written language was banned (see Valuyev Circular and Ems Ukaz of Alexander
II). Yes, those were Russians, not Soviets who opressed Ukraine. Not that
Soviet's were any better with their famine genocide (Holodomor), and
russification.--

Oppressed? Sorry, laddy, but the Cossaks had place of honor in the Tsarist armies and freedoms far and above those of ordinary citizens, which is why they are still the most loyal of all the Rus. Furthermore, Cossaks continued to elect their Hetman and still do. As for the Holdomar nonsense, the worst of the famine, from Soviet screwed up policy (oh and who ran the Soviet Union in those days? That's right, Jews, Latvians, Poles, Georgians and UKRAINIANS) the worst of the famine was in Armenia, Stavrapol, Krasnodar, Crimea, Rostov, Kharkov.

But since you bemoan Russofication, as if that was ever a fact for the eastern Ukraine, while your ancestors were Austrofied...why don't you reverse your Ukrainification of Lvov and give it back to the Poles, whom you genocided out of the city less than 60 years ago?

--Mr. Mishin, it is very sad that you and many other Russians do not
recognize diversity and the right of other countries or ethnicities
for self-determination.--

Really? You say that, while you hypocrites ban the Russian language in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, deny the eastern Oblasts and Crimea a choice of what country to be in and while your Una-Unso who provided body guards to Yushenko, screams death to Moscovites and Jews (Zhids)...oh that is rich, how you put that. Learn that in a Western revolutionary training camp?

Stanislav said...

@Vuyko Z.

You can dispise us all you want, we don't want you, really that simple. We want our eastern "Ukraine" back, where the people are pro-Russian, speak Russian and want unification. You and your socialist western Oranges can sit on your dirt poor farms and starve of pride, or maybe the Poles will take you under their wing...and show you the door out from Lvov.

--Not that Russian will be any good with further declines in commodities.--

Russia has a large diversified economy with much industry and produces most of its own goods, which is why the Russian unemployment rate is half of America's and a third of Germany's or Poland's. Again, you in western Ukraine, go your own way and make what you can off of what you have, the east wants back and should be allowed and will be allowed.

Fight? The only fight about to happen is the East Orthodox against the Germanized Western "Ukrainians".

As for people, if you actually read real history, we are one people. Or how do you explain that the first Kieven Rus capital was Novgorod (where again is that?) while Kiev was under Khazar rule. The third major city was Ryazan...where is that again? The fourth was Vladimir, also east of Moscow and so on.

Gogol knew what he wrote about, his culture was not created by Germanic Austro-Hungarians, like that of the "nationalist" Ukrainians of today.

Kiev is split at best and most of that is because Yushenko and Timoshenko moved a lot of their people into the city. The oblast polls mostly pro-Russia. Everything east and south, be it Odessa, Crimea, Donetsk Donsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, Lughansk are all very very pro-Russian and most want unification.

So not sure who is going to "fight", but maybe the Poles or Hungarians will come "rescue" you in the west...but I bet the price will be high.

Vuyko Z. said...

Mr. Mishin,-- thank you for making a stand, and showing clearly to all
the readers, that the true goal is "unification".

Let's be clear here, nobody gives a damn about the "people", be it Russia
or US. Ukraine is just a little player sandwiched in-between the relatively
free Western Europe, and totaly unfree Asia (Russia, etc.).

Eastern Ukraine attracts you and Russian leaders for its the only
industrially developed part of Ukraine. Take that away and Ukrainian
economy is gone. This will reduce Ukraine's position to a "no player at
all". You are overly optimistic about the prospects of unification,--
nobody, Russian language or not, wants to be a "little brother".

For the average folk (99% of the population) the difference between West
and East is the difference of employer. Now let me know, would people
prefer to work in democracy (or democratic republic) or in dictatorship.
In democracy they at least have a shot at some decency (West), while in
dictatorship (Russia) they are screwed for sure (Gulag, NKVD or is it FSB
now?).

As for the residual 1% who wants to own assets or owns them now,
the question is about property rights and personal safety. Again, who
would you trust? Russia with their infantile stage of development and
Yukos story(ies), or the West with their multi-century history of
property rights?

This has nothing to do with socialism, its about fair living and not
waiting for a knock at the door in the night.

As for the socialism, yes American developments are alarming, but it
is still (with all the recent BS) not as socialist or autocratic as
any other country on earth (excluding maybe Switzerland). So to call
it western socialism is a bit overstatment, as not all the west is
the same.

Vuyko Z. said...

BTW, if Russia are so pro-freedom, why it did not let Chechnya to separate?

Russia has a large diversified economy? Dude,- your economy is called
"emerging" for a reason. Yes, you are next in line with other BRICs,
but largely because energy and raw materials. There is also some
outdated (read Soviet) manufacturing and technology, but they are not
even close to what China does. BTW, China is also "emerging", and not
there yet.

What you do not see, is while Yuschenko, Timoshenko, Yanukovich, and
the likes fight, small to middle business is working hard and builds
middle class of Ukraine. Most of those will survive under any government
unless the results of their labor are expropriated.

"one people" we can apply to the whole globe. It is all the same.
Travel, talk to people and you will realize how "special" and "unique"
you or your nation really are. As I said, Kiev Rus is as relevant as
chimpanzee. What is important what are people thinking now. And movers
and shakers of Ukraine are not thinking about becoming Russian serfs,
nor do they want to become Western serfs. They want to be rulers of
themselves.

You are acusing me of nationalism, while pushing chauvinistic Russian
& Orthodox Christian point of view at the same time? At least I leave
space for people of other ethnicities, beliefs, and lifestyles within
the borders of the state. What about you? Is that Russia for Russians
who are Orthodox Christian, not Gay or Lesbian, etc.? How do you define
Russian? So far I am only hearing negation of the West. How would you
define yourself if (or when) the west is gone. ;o)

Vuyko Z. said...

I am not a Yuschenko supporter, and from the start was saying that he
simply has no money to be of any independence, nor as it turned out he
has the brains to lead the country. Timoshenko is socialist and scares
the business shitless. Both of them wasted away a golden opportunity.

As for the ex-con Yanukovich, he is (using your language) Russian puppet.

Who really brought people in Kiev, that's Yanukovich, with all "Donetskie"
moving into Kiev along with him.

Nobody bans Russian language. You can speak, read, and write it as you
please. It is not the official language of the state though. Russia
has many ethnicities as well, and I have not heard yet, that any of their
language is official.

As for the extriemist in Ukraine. There is plenty of idios anywhere.
Read up on skin-head movement in Russia. Does this mean that all Russian
people are like that? Of course, no.