Monday, August 31, 2009

Serbian Party Wants Unity With Russia

Recently, a new party, My Russia, was formed in Serbia, the Western dissected rump of Yugoslavia. The goal of the Party, first and foremost, is unity with Russia, as attested by its founder Ivan Isakovich. The party, while still minor and in its infancy, has tapped a nerve in Serbia that not only takes in the US led Terror Bombing of Civilians and the creation of Islamic substates in the Balkans but taps into something much deeper and much more of a threat to the Western elites.

In truth, this movement and others like it are nothing new. Panslavicism and PanOrthodoxy were the driving force from the 18th and 19th centuries that threatened not only the Islamic Turkish and Austro-Hungarian rule over Slavs but the whole of the British/Anglo defined world, which was aimed to keep the Slavs disunited and poor.

In truth, Catherine the Great had great hopes of defeating the Turks and driving them out of the Balkans, recreating the Byzantine Empire, thus freeing the Second Rome, as prophesy stated the Third Rome would do, and placing her grandson, Constantine, on the throne. Unfortunately, this did not come to pass, as she died of a heart attack while her armies were busy crushing Fredrick the Great.

In the 1820s, the Greeks fought an insurrection that turned into a revolution against the Ottomans, a war that saw many hundreds of thousands killed. Alexander Ypsilantis, who had started the rebellion tried to unite the other Orthodox Christians of the Balkans and to pull in Russia. However, he had misplayed his politics on one hand and on the other, Russia at the time was ruled by the weak willed Alexander I who would not commit to much of anything for anyone. At the same time the Greeks in the Peloponnese launched their own insurrection in March 1821, that would run to victory. By mid August the Turks had also been defeated in central Greece.

It should be noted that there was absolutely no help, in the early stages, from the Western Christians of any stripe, as they have never had any interest in the freedom of the Eastern Christians from Islamic rule and tyranny. Why ask for competition? There was only one noted exception to this, by Commodore Gawen Hamilton, who moved his fleet into a threatening position (but did not fire) on the Egyptian expedition that had landed in the Peloponnese by Turkish behest and was busy massacring the local population. The move helped save the city of Nafplion.

Austrian foreign minister, Prince Metternich actively worked to undermine the Russian foreign minister Ioannis Capodistrias from moving Alexander I into a more vigorous support of the Greeks. To the immediate pity of the Greeks, Metternich prevailed and Capodistrias resigned.

By 1822, the British started to assist the Greeks, not out of some new found love of the Greek Orthodox Christians or some dislike of the Turks, but out of fear that the flood of Russian volunteers entering the conflict and of Alexander I vacillating towards open war with the Turks, would promote Russian prestige and thus PanOrthodoxy. To that end, George Canning, the new Foreign Minister of the British Empire, in mid 1822, limited ports from where the Turks could buy supplies and concluded two loans to the Greeks, in exchange for the creation of the pro-British party in Greek politics.

Things changed dramatically, when Nicholas I came to the Russian throne, as Russia quickly moved to the Greek side in 1826, demanding from Turkey and evacuation of all Turkish forces from Greek lands. The British quickly moved, in the form of the Duke of Wellington, to cozy up to Russia and through the Petersburg Protocol, demanded mediation of the conflict with Russia and Britain as the mediators. When the Turks rejected the mediators, who had also been joined by France, an inevitability of combat arose. To that end, on 20 October 1827, a combined Russian, British, French fleet completely destroyed a Turkish/Egyptian fleet in the Bay of Navarino. The Islamics lost 75 of their 89 ships to an allied loss of zero ships and 200 dead (the Islamic losses were over 8,000).

While this battle was viewed as a measure to enforce mediation by the British and French, Nicholas I, used it as Caseus Bela and declared war on the Turks. Seeing the declaration of war by Russia, the French hurried an expeditionary force to the Peloponnese, to assist the Greeks in clearing the area of Turkish/Egyptian forces. The Protocols of February 3, 1830 created peace and Greek independence.

Thus in this example, it is obvious that the Western Christians only came to the aid of the Orthodox Greeks in an attempt to halt the spread of Russian and thus PanOrthodox influence in the region. In the immediate term, through to the Bolshevik Revolution, they failed. Only due to the Cold War were they successful and even now their influence slips.

The Russian march against the Turks, on all fronts, from southern Ukraine and Crimea, to the Caucuses to the Balkans continued through the late 1700s and early 1800s, even as nationalism and a drive for independence spread through the Christian lands of the Balkans. Seeing their earlier attempt to capitalize on the anti-Turkish movements prove futile, in the face of PanOrthodoxy and PanSlavicism, the Western powers decided to switch tracks and instead ally themselves with the Islamic Turks. To that end, in support of the Islamic super state of the times, the British and French launched a war in Crimea, the Crimean War of 1854. This was, in the end, pointless and accomplished little, except to 1. keep the Christians of the Balkans as Islamic slaves for another generation and 2. to throw Russian support behind the US Federals and thus loose the war for the Confederacy, a mistake for which the world has paid for the past 150 years.

To that end, the inevitable still happened and must have caused many heart attacks throughout the West: the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878. During the intense fighting, the Turkish Empire in the West was humiliated and crushed. Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia joined already independent Greece.

Thus, in this greater context, a My Russia party in Serbia is the worst of nightmares for the West and one that must be destroyed and suppressed at any cost. The Serbian government is still nominally a vassal of its oppressors, the very ones who less than 11 years ago were happily bombing the Serbs "into the Stone Ages" in support of one Islamic jihad or another.

The problem for the West of Serbia joining the Russian Federation and the eventual Monarchy that will rise up again, is not simply that Russia will grow stronger and will be firmly entrenched, if surrounded, in the Balkans. Indeed it will serve to refute the Western super national organizations such as the EU and the future NAU (North American Union) which seek to destroy nationalism, religion and create a massive peasant/serf class of Europeans and N.Americans to serve their elite masters.

Indeed, such an undertaking would be like pouring kerosene on the sputtering flames of PanOrthodoxy and PanSlavicism, the two biggest fears of the West in Eastern and Southern Europe. They very well know that their vassals, their puppets in power in those nations are barely holding power and holding it with vast empty promises and a farce that is quickly running its course.

31 comments:

Ducky's here said...

Nobody wants anything to do with you Muscovite pigs. Get real.

Stanislav said...

@Ducky

Your mindless hatred is fun to watch...we ignore you and you go nuts. If we want to talk at you, we will talk to the Germans, who own the Poles. It is what it is. And if you are actually Western Ukrainian, when the Center/East reunifys, you can go join Poland and evacuate their city Lvov.

Arius said...

Serbia either continues its descent into the German shadow or breaks out by going into close alliance with Russia. It may be too late for the latter. Serbia is now well penetrated by EU and US NGOs throwing a lot of money around. In the last several years I have lost hope that Serbia would turn away from the EU and to Russia.

Cp6uH said...

Ducky... are you speaking
for the whole Earth? The Galaxy?
:-)

The Serbian people are one of the only true friends of Russian people... hence all the demonizing against Serbs in the last 20 years... nothing has been done
"by chance".

We can go on and on about anti-Serbian propaganda and lies,
but the figures (given by the ICTY
itself) speak for themselves.

Now that Serbia is a sold, vassal country, it's another story ;
but that's just the few people
on top, and a bunch of youngsters
who are made to dream about emigrating to western countries.

Imagine a country where the Head
of the Intelligence Service worked
for the CIA for 8 years...
you've got it... Serbia
That tells you all.

Now sure, you all have an opinion
about Serbia...
Go watch CNN.

Leos Tomicek said...

@ Arius

I also think this initiative is a work of some romantic idealists and not rooted in political reality. But nevertheless its nice anyway.

taken said...

Does a similar party exist in Armenia?

If not, it should be created.

Specially since the news this week is that Armenia is about the make a tragic mistake.

hamilton x said...

Serbia already has better relations with Russia than the US and that is unlikely to change.The EU is unlikely to accept Serbia for membership anytime soon,if ever. Frankly,time is on the side of the "Pan-Orthodox" if you will. US power peaked in 1999 and continues to decline.This decline will only accelerate with Obama. I predict the Serbs will reconcile with the Croats("Pan-Christian"?) to oppose further Islamic inroads in the Balkans but this time America will not provide the jihadists with an air force...and unlike 1999 the Bear will checkmate the Eagle.As to the EU,less and less Europeans like this dictatorial regime which becomes less attractive with each passing year. As 2009 reveals an astonishing decline from America's powerful position in 1999, I would bet the year 2019 reveals a Europe far more divided than united,with a growing number of countries and territories oriented to Moscow's leadership. The nightmare is some may be facing Mecca.....

jack said...

Is FBI whistleblower Sidel Edmonds the smoking gun to prove that Al Qaeda is fake and US/Turkey/Saudi Arabia, etc sponsors and promotes terrorism in Yugoslavia Russia, China and Central Asia?

All the info you need (well some good info) on Let Sidel Edmonds Speak blog

http://letsibeledmondsspeak.blogspot.com/2008/07/court-documents-shed-light-on-cia.html

Great article with detailed info of state sponsored terrorism in Kosovo and Chechnya.

“Turkish intelligence were aware of unusual militant Islamic activity in the Yalova mountains, where Sakka had set up his camps.

Some of Sakka’s account is corroborated by the US government’s 9/11 Commission. It found evidence that four of the hijackers – whom Sakka says he trained – had initially intended to go to Chechnya from Turkey but the border into Georgia was closed.”

"In fact, apprehended terrorists often hold Turkish passports - reportedly both fake and real. A quick google search, for example, demonstrates Turkish passports on terrorists captured in New York, Chechnya, Chechnya again and again, Pakistan training camps, and Georgia, Russia, and Kyrgyzstan. Many of the 'detainees' at Guantanamo also hold Turkish passports."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/15/551916/-Sibel-Edmonds-Case:-The-Central-Asia-Islamization-Cocktail:-Mosques,-Madrassas,-HeroinTerrorism

I could email you other info Matt from main stream news sources that prove that in every instance of alleged Al Qaeda instances they are linked and originally recruited to fight in Chechnya or Central Asia with links to foreign intelligence if you want?

Wouldn't it be better for Russia to create a Eurasian sphere consisting of Russia, China, Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian countries as they hold the largest oil and gas reserves that Europe needs in the future?

Arius said...

Jack, the SCO seems to be evolving in just the direction that you suggest.

Taken, I'm trying to understand what Armenia is doing with Turkey in the secret accords they signed. I see that Armenians are very upset, and think that Armenia has made a terrible mistake.

Cp6uH said...

Hi all,

Please excuse the length of the post ; I'll take the opportunity that Stanislav is
writing about Serbia to try and give you some background information on that country.
Feel free to check the information in various sources, of course :-)


> Wouldn't it be better for Russia to create a Eurasian sphere consisting of Russia, China,
> Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian countries as they hold the largest oil and gas reserves
> that Europe needs in the future?

I think that already exists, and is called the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.
(please correct me if I misunderstood your suggestion).



> I also think this initiative is a work of some romantic idealists and not rooted in political reality.
> But nevertheless its nice anyway.

I agree that it's more of an idealistic concept.

However, let's not forget that at the end of 2007, Tomislav Nikolic (leader of the SRS, Serbian Radical Party) had proposed to

invite Russia to open military bases in Serbia.

In the following elections, the radicals won in the first round (39,99% vs 35,39% for the democrats) Then in the second round, Boris

Tadic (from the "Democratic Party") won, 50,31% vs 47.97% to the radicals.

No one complained about frauds in the West... :-)
ok, they got what they wanted...

You can imagine how active and persuasive the NGOs were, distributing shirts, pens (yes...)...
"my horse for a kingdom.... a pen for Serbia..." not funny...
convincing the hesitant ones that we'll keep Kosovo and get into "Europe" (as if we were in Asia),
They sould not miss the opportunity and ensure they'll have a brilliant career and make loads of money by living somewhere in the

west.


Look at the political poster of Mr Tadic...
it reads "(vote Tadic) so that we can conquer Europe together"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sr/f/f3/Plakati_izbori_2008_2_krug.JPG

Now that's a message... Serbia is going to conquer Europe :-)
We see only young people... older people are not interested in emigrating, or know
the propaganda too well, they know they can't find a job in the crisis-struck west...
the young, naive ones, are easy to fool, until they grow up and see their mistake,
or they become more western than westerners, like the "janicari"/yeni ceri in the Ottoman army.

The message: I will allow you to emigrate to Europe, the hell with Serbia, its Kosovo,
its refugees from all parts of ex-Yugoslavia, and its future.

In contrast, Nikolic said once to the youth (from the top of my head):
"I want to to travel, but don't only look west, look south, look east... look everywhere"

Look EAST????
oh no... that's an ultra-nationalist!

(anytime someone doesn't fully agree with the diktat from the west, he is labeled
as ultra-nationalist, that's convenient, it helps the masses to find the bad guy).



> Serbia already has better relations with Russia than the US

How to explain that to westerners... hmmmm...
You know, when you have a brother... at times you may
be in good relations, at times in better ones,
but you still feel it's your brother, no matter what.

That's how Serbs think of Greeks and Russians
(they might be right or wrong to think so, but that's a fact).

Now, I dont't know what the Russians think about Serbs,
after all, Serbia is a small country.

But the Greeks are defnitely sympathetic towards Serbs,
if you go there on vacation and tell people you are from Serbia,
they will treat you like a brother.

Serbs are not anti-russian like many other eastern European countries
It might be partly due to the fact that, during the cold war,
Yugoslavia was neither in the western nor in the eastern bloc.

And of course, Mr Bush said "if you are not with us, you are against us"
which I could paraphrase as "if you're not against Russia, you're against us"

So if you don't agree with NATO occupation, you're automatically
anti-american, anti-west, anti-european and so on...

Cp6uH said...

> I predict the Serbs will reconcile with the Croats("Pan-Christian"?)
> to oppose further Islamic inroads in the Balkans

Unfortunately... I have no illusions about that:

Now a bit of history, if you find it boring, don't read :-)


Historically, catholic christians always favoured the muslims
over orthodox christians, if that was in their interest ;
the interest was first to have a weak Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire,
then later, when the Ottoman Empire was crumbling, a weak Russia
(hence England and France were against Russia, no matter what).

Serbs have been living on a third of the territory of present-day
Croatia for at least 450 years, and they have been expelled in 3 days
in 1995 by the Croats, aided by NATO... no one made any fuss about it,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina

No one talked about ethnic cleansing (a term exclusively reserved for
the Serbs?).



During the nazi-puppet state of croatia (WWII), the Croats set up
an extermination camp no one talks about... even though
it's the second or third - in importance - extermination camp in Europe,
at Jasenovac, where they killed about 700000 people (estimates vary), mostly Serbs,

The muslims were viewed as allies, "croatian flower" (hrvatsko cvijece) by the
croatian nazis (Ustashi, they had a 'U' letter as symbol, the equivalent
of the German svastika).

Ask anyone to name a few concentration camps... Auschwitz, Treblinka
etc etc... but almost no one will think of Jasenovac, people never heard of it...


This is a map of the NDH, which stretched over the whole of present-day
Bosnia, and part of Serbia until Belgrade.

http://www14.brinkster.com/philayu/CRO/NDH2.htm

The official aim was to expel one-third of all Serbs, convert another
third to catholicism, and kill the remaining third.

Practically speaking there were more killings than conversions and expulsions
sometimes people were killed just after conversion.

The catholic church was in direct connection with the ustashi
the Vatican never broke relatins with the Ustashi during the war,
some of the priests were among the best killers (like Fra Majstorovic)

see, e.g.:
http://fosteringfreethought.blogspot.com/2006/03/orthodox-christians-in-holocaust.html


And this is some info about Jasenovac:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/othercamps/jasenovac.html


Note the specially designed knife, "srbosjek" = cutter of serbs,
which allows to cut many throats without getting tired...

It was also used in many killing contests... in one of these contests,
the ustasha Petar Brzica killed 1360 Serbs and won a golden watch,
a roasted pig, some wine and the title "King of the Cutthroats".


BTW, the four stamps at the bottom commemorate the ustasha 'heroes'
who went to fight on the Don, at Stalingrad, Sevastopolj, and the sea of Azov.

http://www14.brinkster.com/philayu/CRO/NDH2.htm


So much for the pan-christian spirit.

Cp6uH said...

third and last round :-)


At the start of the recent war (1991), the Serbs living in Croatia
feared that history would repeat, and that they would lose all civic
rights, I think there is a similar situation for Russians in the Baltic states,
only without the protection of the biggest country on earth.
Ustashi symbols started reappearing. Serbs were losing their jobs and their civic rights,
so they proclaimed a Serbian Krajina Republic, which lasted until the end of the war.

Let's not forget that the Yugoslav republics ("states" in the USA)
had been artificially drawn by Tito (Croat), which left a huge number
of Serbs outside Serbia, and created a republic of Bosnia, with Croats, Serbs
and muslims (muslim is not a statehood, until you create a state of course).


NOWADAYS

You won't see that in your media, but one has to know
that a huge majority of Croats hate Serbs,
the younger generation is totally brainwashed,
nazi (ustasha) singers like Thompson are allowed to perform
and shout "ustashi, ustashi" and they attract a huge crowd.

Imagine a German group touring Europe, and shouting "nazis, nazis"...
no you can't, it's illegal...
but against the Serbs, that doesn't matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_(band)#Controversial_statements






Now, instead of Serbs hating the Croats, it's the opposite...
go figure.

To give an idea, saying "Serb" in Croatia is the same as saying "communist"
in the States during McCarthysm.

Croat singers can come to sing to Serbia, you find many cars with Croatian
plates in Serbia and they never had problems, but the opposite is far from true...


Voilà,
I hope you have some starting points, just in case you are wiling to search
for unbiased information, instead of watching/reading the mass-media.

hamilton x said...

The Armenians,I do not believe, can or will give up Artsakh(Karabakh). My somewhat reliable sources tell me that is not on the table. There may be some fudging on the "Genocide". There may be some meaningless declaration on the "integrity" of borders. I believe the Azeris are more worried the Turks are losing interest in their claims on Armenia. In other words this may be a victory for Armenia.But there may be less here than meets the eye. Still the above correspondents are correct for bringing up this issue as potentially important.We'll know more in a month or so.

taken said...

Jack,

I predict the Serbs will reconcile with the Croats("Pan-Christian"?) to oppose further Islamic inroads in the Balkans but this time America will not provide the jihadists with an air force

What makes you predict the US won't act stupid again?

W.r.t. Armenia, Davutoglu said yesterday that the border won't open, unless "progress" is made on Karabagh, and that the border won't open in the immideate term.
http://www.asbarez.com/2009/09/01/davutoglu-says-border-opening-%E2%80%98out-of-the-question%E2%80%99/

So Turkey is really not putting anything on the table right now.

Armenia, on the oter hand agrees to :
-Recognize the current (Kars treaty) borders on Turkey.
-“refrain from pursuing any policy incompatible with the spirit of good neighborly relations,” meaning that they expect us to stop seeking recognition of the genocide and pretend our grandparents just went for a walk in the desert with no food.
-a joint historical commisison, where turkish "historian" will hold the above line. The commission will naturally come to no conclusion and provide cover for the Turk's tale.
-“non-intervention in internal affairs”, meaning that if restart massacrering the few Armenians left in Antatolia and we complain, they will accuse us of intervention.

jack said...

@Cp6uH

The OSE is just a joint security agreement pack.
What I'm talking about and what is needed is a comprehensive EU like coalition of a joint energy, development and trade and well as security.

At the present Russia and China are competing for energy routes and with Soros and co are putting there money into China with the need for energy to fuel there economy.

With western sponsored terrorism in Xinjing with the Turkic Ughirs cutting of energy routes from Kazakhstan and with Chinese immigration into Siberia will cause conflict and division between Russia and China classic divide and conquer strategy.

@taken

The pan Slavic statement about Croat and Serb reconciliation was said by Hamilton X not me.

I don't think there is a chance of any union from the blogs I've visited they hate each other and remember it was the Croats and Muslim joined forces to attack the Serbs during the Balkans wars.

@Stanislav

I think you're overstating the importance Pan Slavic or Orthodox union as Greece hosts and gives sanctuary to exiled oligarch Vladimir Guisinky and probably gas as much Jewish control of the media and government as every other country in the EU.

hamilton x said...

The Bosnian Croat leader has just met with Tadic in Belgrade much to the consternation of the Bosniaks.The RS and Bosnian Croats have re-established many ties.Do the folks criticizing me keep up with events or just relive the 1990s?

hamilton x said...

Taken,with sincere respect you are probably a little too worried about Armenia's talks with Turkey. The actual outcome,as I read today, did not link Artsakh with anything. Frankly,Armenia is going into these talks in a stronger position than at any time I can recall. I'm slightly optimistic(emphasize slightly).Think about the following though:Turkey's ally,the U.S.is floundering and Armenia's ally,Russia is now the real power in the Caucasus.The Turks must know the U.S. has also bumbled into establishing a Kurdish state in Iraq.The Azeris continue to "talk loudly and carry a small stick". Why back those losers ? I think the real deal the Turks are looking for is help with the Kurds...and that's why they're interested in improved ties with Armenia and Iran.

Cp6uH said...

jack,

> The OSE is just a joint security agreement pack.
> What I'm talking about and what is needed is a comprehensive EU like coalition
> of a joint energy, development and trade and well as security.

I don't know what the OSE is, I was talking about the SCO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation

whose task is also to foster security, economic and cultural cooperation



> I don't think there is a chance of any union from the blogs I've visited they hate each other

Correct, that's what I said in my posts about Serbia.


> and remember it was the Croats and Muslim joined forces to attack the Serbs during the Balkans wars.

during the Balkan wars, and during WWII as well
the good ones (Croat and Muslims) being with the Nazis,
and the bad ones (Serbs) with the Allies

:-)

hamilton x said...

One more very ,very important point for those who believe a Serb-Croat reconciliation in the face of an Islamic threat is improbable. Actually such cooperation was a FACT in the Bosnian cauldron UNTIL the United States nixed it and cobbled together the coalition against the Serbs. There is no dispute...NONE...that Zagreb and Belgrade were prepared to mutually resolve the "Bosnian" issue until the US intervened ON BEHALF of the Muslims. I now argue that the US can no longer effectively intervene.But if you want to relive the 1990s at least get your facts straight!

jack said...

@Cp6uH

I meant SCO probably in my sub concious was thinking of OSCE there covert activities were quite prevalent in covert operations in Yugoslavia against the Serbs giving GPS coordinates to the KLA and the last years Georgia conflict.

On paper they do what I suggest but in reality they haven't made much of an impact and have made no major Eurasian development commitments.

But that is not issue the issue which no one addresses seriously is that this whole creation since 79 of an international Islamic mercenary force what we call Al Qaeda to Balkanise Russia like they did Yugoslavia and control Central Asia so they can pump Eurasian oil and gas from the Caspian through there Balkan colony in Kosovo to the EU empire.

Why is this not the core issue?

They could start with 9/11 with the hijackers and there network being diverted from Chechnya to do the false flag terror attack in the US.

jack said...

@hamilton x

I think your facts are wrong you should watch the US documentary Yugoslavia the avoidable war.

It was Bosnian Muslim and a Croat that fired the first shot of the war stalking and killing a Serb wedding..

And there are other instances like Operation Storm were Muslims and Croats joined forces to attack and expel the Serbs from Krijina.

I could be wrong that there may have been Croat factions that co-operated with the Serbs but I haven't heard of anything.

http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=6690

Cp6uH said...

@hamilton x

You are talking about facts with a capital letter.
That's nice, but we all know that incomplete information is false information.

That means that even men of good will like you, who are trying to be objective
are fooled because they have to rely on some information they read, without really seeing
things from the inside, hence the mistakes and misunderstandings.

If I was talking about Korea or Mexico or Congo, with the best of will,
I would also make mistakes because I don't understand the situation, I am not part of
these countries, so I wouldn't know whether I have covered all the problematic or not.



> Do the folks criticizing me keep up with events or just relive the 1990s?

I didn't criticize anyone, and the westerners who are really objectively trying to understand
what is happening in the world, despite all the propaganda you are subjected to, get all my respect.
And if I think they are wrong, I say so, but that is not an attack.
(in your case, I don't know whether you are a westerner or not, but you're not a Serb).


The facts you are giving us are not false in themselves, they are just incomplete,
which leads you to draw false conclusions.


> The Bosnian Croat leader has just met with Tadic in Belgrade much to the consternation of the Bosniaks.The RS and Bosnian Croats have

re-established many ties.

The Bosnian Croat leader AND the Bosnian Serb leader as well.
As for the ties between the RS and Croats, "the enemy of my enemy is my temporary friend, until circumstances change".



> One more very ,very important point for those who believe a Serb-Croat reconciliation in the face of an Islamic threat is improbable.

I was also thinking like that during the war in Yugoslavia, it seemed logical to me, but I was still young...
The hard facts I gave you in my previous post show that there is no Christian coalition,
if that happened in history, that was only temporary, out of interest, and not because there was a true sense of
belonging to the same Christian world.

The catholic world has always preferred, and still prefers, to help muslims, rather than their orthodox "brothers"
(I should say "fathers") even at the cost of fostering muslim expansion.

And America (obviously not a catholic country) is happy to see muslims take over Europe, the weaker Europe is, the more obedient it will be to the

Empire
I hear the neo-cons think: "We got our colony in Bosnia and Kosovo... ah... if only those muslims in southern Russia could destabilise it enough so

that it becomes our colony... we stole billions from Russia in the last 20 years, but that's never enough, we want the whole world because we are...

'the greatest nation ever' emm... let's send some military trainers and the "humanitarian" help that goes with them to Georgia".

(to be continued)

Cp6uH said...

> Actually such cooperation was a FACT in the Bosnian cauldron UNTIL the United States nixed it and cobbled together the coalition against the

Serbs.
> There is no dispute...NONE...that Zagreb and Belgrade were prepared to mutually resolve the "Bosnian" issue until the US intervened ON BEHALF of

the Muslims.


I didn't say there had been no plan for Serbs and Croats to work together against the muslims,
look up, for exemple, the Karadjordjevo meeting in 1991 and the Graz agreement in 1992.

The big part you forget in your, otherwise good, reasoning, is that you only take into account Bosnia,
whereas there were 600 000 Serbs living in Croatia in 1991, juste before the war started
(since the 16th century, as I already said), about 14% of the population,
and 30% of the currently Croatian territory, in areas where they were absolute majority, i.e. in "ethnically pure" areas,
that even Croats knew their were "Serb" in essence... Serbs and Croatians in Croatia were not mixed all over the country.

Again, here you can see where the Serbs were living in the last 450 years

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/RSK.png

Now you expelled all these Serbs from Croatia, should we expel all the Albanians from Kosovo,
after all, they already have a country, it's called Albania...
Nobody was for Serbian independence in Krajina and Bosnia, as they did for Kosovo... double standards?

Now look at Europe 450 years ago (let's not even talk about America...)

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/europe/haxeurope2.html

So if you expelled the Serbs from their lands in current Croatia, then we should also re-establish
the European map from 1550, right?


So, don't forget that any Bosnian question (dividing Bosnia in three parts, Serbian, Croatian and Muslim)
has to be put in perspective with the Serbs in Croatia question, Croatia wanted to take as much of Bosnia
as possible, keeping of course the Serb-populated regions in Croatia, and "motivating" them to emigrate
to the Serbian areas of Bosnia.

Now the Serbs are about 3% of the population in Croatia... that's not ethnic cleansing.


> at least get your facts straight!

At least get ALL the facts, otherwise you can't interpret them correctly :-)

Cp6uH said...

@jack

> I could be wrong that there may have been Croat factions that co-operated with the Serbs but I haven't heard of anything.

The main rule, like during WWII, was Croats+Muslims vs Serbs
because the Serbs were historically, the most numerous, even after the massacres of WWII... (fyi, the muslim SS Handzar division was one of the most 'famous').

But, as I said "the enemy of my enemy is my temporary friend",
so, on a local scale, all combinations were seen on the ground, but these were minor occurrences here and there.

During WWII, they managed to kill and expel more than 1 million Serbs in current Croatia and Bosnia I talked about the Jasenovac camp, but there were of course many massacres everywhere, where the Croats and Muslims would just burst in villages and kill people.

After WWII, the communists forbid
the Serbs to go and look for their
victims, it was "brotherhood and
unitiy", we are all yugoslav,
there are no Croats, Serbs, Slovenes...

In WWII, there were two killers (Croat+Muslim) and one victim (Serbs),
in the recent Yugoslav wars, there were 3 killers and 3 victims.


And despite all these killings, even now, in Bosnia, there are 38% of Serbs vs 48% of muslims and 14% of Croats.


Let's not forget also that the muslims were fighting between themselves for a while,
because some of them, under Fikret Abdic, were in good terms with both Serbia and Croatia,
and also wanted a partition of Bosnia, with a Serbian, a Croatian, and a Muslim entity.

Of course, the muslims were and are against partition, because they hope they will take
the whole of Bosnia, after all... the Albanians in Kosovo are doing the same... just make enough kids,
and in thirty-fourty years you'll have absolute majority.

If you, as Christian, have 2 kids, in three generations, we have 2x2x2 = 8 people...
if Albanians (with the hight natality rate in Europe) from Kosovo, or muslims
in Bosnia have 5 kids, we have 5x5x5 = 125 people....

125 vs 8... simple maths...


Some additional reading for those interested:
(again, find your own sources and make you own opinion)

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Krajina/index.html
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/Bosnia.html

See also, an American source:
"Genocide in Satellite Croatia 1941- 1945" by Professor Edmond Paris
The American Institute for Balkan Affairs, Chicago, 1961

hamilton x said...

To those who disagree,I stand by my more optimistic "predictions" and you remain skeptical. Good enough. To be fair,I try to keep my posts relatively brief so please don't assume I don't having a decent grip on your history because I don't restate it as a preface. I like to look at things in the context of 1999 to 2009 and then to 2019. To be frank,but not chauvinistic, America's wax and wane is the very critical factor to determine before making these predictions and I am quite comfortable in trying to get everyone to understand we are now in the "wane".But it is certainly not the only factor.

hamilton x said...

Cp,I would rather agree than disagree but sometimes we just can't. Allow me a brief reply? The Catholic and Orthodox churches are in dispute but nothing like the often bloody conflicts of past decades and centuries. Facing a very serious Islamic threat, many Christians, both West and East, are MEETING and TALKING and PLANNING. Forgive the CAPS!!! But seriously, the tapes and papers I take away from such conferences are not imaginary! I'll remain optimistic. We seem to have a start at something good. You have very correctly pointed out the growing and threatening expansion of Islam in the Balkans. I see it as likely then that in a vacuum of American indifference,there will be a "pan-Christian" solution if you will. Do we assume that only Islam can fight as a "faith"?If my "prediction" is the assertion of hope over experience,such triumphs do sometimes surprise us. You may have the last word.

ajokic said...

Now careful there. Rather then being "the worst of nightmares for the West" a new party like My Russia in Belgrade appears like a perfect project for CIA to put its people up for such a project precisely in order to ruin the chances of any such thing being actually success.

Cp6uH said...

hamilton x,

I understand your point of view. It is logical, for a normal human being, but not for mutants. Let me explain:

I used to think like you, until I really learnt about history,
and the ne-con anglo-saxon mind (meeting and talking to a lot of people).

Then, all of a sudden, everything was clear to me:
this is a special race of men...
mutants... motivated only by one thing... greed.

If humanity needed to understand one word about them, it's "greed".

That race of people will never rest, they might control 99% of a country, they won't rest, nor refrain from killing scores of people you with napalm, or uranium-based weapons, until they control the last square meter (I should say: foot).

The only way to stop them is to show your muscles, and when they let their dogs go at you, slap the doggies so hard that it makes them think twice.

It's a culture based on greed, and from there we derive:
lies, racism, colonial mind, superiority complex... and so on.

And there is no place for religion there, their only religion is the religion of money.

It's much more than hate of the slavic or orthodox people, for a while I thought it was specifically directed at "us"... everybody hate the Slavs because we are the biggest group in Europe... no, no, it's not even that complicated.

I have recently discussed with such a guy, who told me that the English were right to occupy France, and that they should eventually take that territory,
he was dead serious, I know him.

Background info: during the 100-year's war, the English occupied
a large portion of the French territory, until the French won the war in 1453 (easy to remember, the same year the Ottomans took Constantinople, mainly thanks to a Hungarian-made cannon).

More than 600 years have passed...
Can you believe such a reasoning in the 21.st century?

When you hear such discourse (and I hear others), you can fully understand their acts.

Even worse, these mutants are happy to sacrifice their own countrymen, as long as the money keeps flowing into their pockets.

They are not concerned about the well-being of their fellow English, British or American...
on thing matters, money. And if thousands of their people die (in wars abroad, due to a prehistoric social system, etc...) that doesn't matter to them.

People should not forget ; hence the very intelligent Chinese don't forget the Unequal Treaties and the like... whereas other nations are deceived for the n-th time by the masters of the world wannabees.

P.S. And sorry for the previous very long posts, I just wanted to pack the most important information at once, so I wouldn't have to bother you later with it.

Cp6uH said...

Did I talk about the "popular" neo-nazi singer Thompson? Yes I did...

Here are more fresh news, from his
very official concert in a Zagreb (capital of Croatia) stadium... the Croatian haven't forgotten the nazi salute yet... terrible.

Bear in mind this is not a hidden underground concert... it's an official one.

http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/vesti-dana/San-Tompson-sokoli-Hrvate.sr.html

The article goes on saying that
Ephraim Zuroff from the "Simon Wiesental Centre said this was totally inacceptable, irresponsible and dangerous, because his lyrics are supporting the ustashis and are nostalgic of a regime that commited genocide.

Now, the free and objective western press didn't make any fuss about this very present and almost banalised phenomenom... in 21st century Europe.

If they had found only two Serbian lost souls doing the nazi-salute in Belgrade-Serbia, be sure there would have been articles and analyses about the "genocidal Serb people" and so on, as a justification of recent history.

Cp6uH said...

Sorry for spamming....
Same story in English

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2626589.ece

Cp6uH said...

Quoting the previous article from the Sun:

> Nazi concentration camps where 90,000 innocent Jews, gipsies and Serbs were
> murdered.

Here again we see the western propaganda in action... it took me a read-through to spot it,

Nothing new, but it takes an accustomed eye to notice "small" details.


1. the Serbs are listed last, as if 80% of the killed were Jews, then 15% gypsies and 5% Serbs... (please see some numbers below... dirty arithmetic)

At least 10 times more Serbs have been exeterminated than Jews and Roma together, but the unsuspicious western eye would interpret the sentence as "ok, a few Serbs have been murdered, too"...

2. they use the absolute minimum number of victims, used by revisionists and negationnists (the late Croatian President Tudjman used to quote such numbers)
whereas researchers at the Simon Wiesental Center give:

Quotation from the link below:

Estimates of the death toll of the Ustase regime in the Independent State of Croatia vary. According to Aaron Breitbart, Senior Research Associate of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, "Although exact figures for civilian victims of the Ustashi in the nazi puppet state of Croatia may never be known, the following numbers represent reasonable estimates as determined by reputable, scholarly sources": 30,000 Jews, 28,000 Roma, and 600,000 Serbs. In Breitbart's estimate, a further 250,000 Serbs were listed as expelled, and 200,000 "forcibly converted to Catholicism" - in line with the regime's stated goal in mid-1941 of "killing a third, expelling a third, and converting a third" of the pre-war Serbian population.

http://www.jerusalim.org/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/isc/index.html