Thursday, August 27, 2009

When Going Too Far Was Not Far Enough

Never let it be said that I agree with everything Vladimir Putin has done nor that of Dmitri Medvedev. No, not at all.

One such point upon which we so differ, is the 2008 August Georgian War. Why, oh why, did we stop at Gori? Yes, the world, the hypocritical world, screamed: to far...you use to much force, to which they really meant: you do not stand still and die in large numbers, shame on you Russians.

Sorry world, and Anglo-Sphere in particular, we are not the Israeli Jews and we do not need your monies, thus we are not on your leash. Here that Israel? That's your future they have already sold to the Arab Islamics, fools on you to put your own heads in the noose.

As for the use of to much force, this is the same hypocrites that that to kill one terrorist in Pakistan, will level some border village and kill off a score or three of civilians. And they criticize Soviet tactics in Afghanistan? Of course ask how many of them know of the Vietnam Zippo Express: destroy the village to save it from the communists, which only led to 3 million dead Vietnamese.

The image of the warmongering, temper tantrum geezer McCaine the Song Bird of North Vietnam, the man who voted for every war, lecturing Russia that in the twentieth century nations do not solve their disputes by violence, was priceless. The same man who whored himself to the Albanian mafia which was busy not only bringing heroine and whores to Europe and Americas but also murdering Serbian women and children.

But I digress.

The simple and flat truth of the matter is, we should not have stopped until we took Tbilisi. Russia should have taken Georgia, all of it, hung Misha and his shills by their testies...after a Western style trial, of course...well actually, no, that would mean returning to Marx, just ask the poor Serbs suffering from the farce of "justice". We should have fed them, paid them their pensions, given passports to any who asked for it and after two months, given them an open referendum on which oblasts wanted to stay in Russia and which wanted independence.

I guarantee which way that would have gone and a greater embarrassment for the Anglo-Sphere in particular and the West in general, would have been hard to find.

But we did not do it, counting on the Georgians to remove their mass murderer on their own and a year later, nothing has changed and Americans are back arming the psychopaths. We counted on the West's sense of justice and while the Germans and French and Italians and Czech have shown it, the Anglos and their puppets in Poland and the Baltics have none to spare.

It is time for us to learn to do what needs to be done and give them the Fait Accompli.

17 comments:

Leos Tomicek said...

I would not be so categorically sure about the Czechs. Yes the president (Vaclav Klaus) and the leader of the Socialists, the largest party currently still in opposition had some sense of justice and labeled Saakashvili the agressor. But at the time of Saakashvili's grave mistake we had a government full of pro-Washington sycofants such as the former prime minister Mirek Topolanek, the foreign minister Karl von Schwarzenberg and Alexandr Vondra (I can't remember his position). They were all unequivocally pro-Geogrian together with much of the media. Even now the people in media feel uneasy admitting that Georgia made a mistake.

Russians stopped in Gori and Poti because it was part of their objectives, i.e. to secure peace for Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It is a much better punishment to let the tie muncher live with his sins caused by the hubris in his heart than kill him outright. If the Georgians do justice on him, as I feel they will sooner or later it will be much better. Don't forget he still has substantial support of the Georgians. The Russians did not repeat the mistakes of Americans in Iraq who thought they will be welcomed by multitudes as liberators.

Piotr P. said...

Stas whimpered: “Why, oh why, did we stop at Gori?”
I’ll tell you why, Stas: because your so-called army (consisting of conscripts who are herded in like cattle, who feel more like prisoners serving two years for no crime) could not continue on any longer. Learning at least something from the American (by far the most superior in the world) military, the Russians bombed the HELL out of Georgina cities, killing untold thousands of civilians (my aunt, who is a native of Tbilisi, lost three out of four of her grandchildren in those attacks, all under the age of 12). They hoped to break the spirit of these independent, proud, pro-American people, judging them (as all fools do) by themselves: no such luck! Georgian army, after mourning its dead briefly, pushed back with mighty force and stopped the Russian rusty tanks dead on their tracks!

The Byzantine Rambler said...

Title should be "When Going Too Far Was Not Far Enough"

Stanislav said...

@Piotr

First you turd, they were contract soldiers, professionals. Second, they wiped your trained mercenaries out in 5 days and in 2 more would have held Tbilisi, while your trained fools lay dead by the hundreds or were running, leaving behind all equipment.

You do live in such a sad world of government propaganda...but you are an anglo-sphere professor so your job is to teach from the ministry of "truth" not real truth.

Piotr P. said...

Stas; yes, the Almighty God has given us, his children, the right to be filthy liars, but you surely do abuse the privilege greatly. As your own Monster of the Prime-Minister has just said: “We reserve the privilege of considering any and all countries in Eurasia within the sphere of our immediate interest, and the right to enforce such a privilege by all means necessary”. Your so-called all-volunteer Russian army (which is completely untrue: according to the Ministry of Defense, only the 440-st battalion was comprised of paid volunteers, while the rest of the 2nd tank division, as well as the 31-st motorized brigade were the regular (i.e. conscripted) armed forces) overwhelming the Georgians by 5 to 1 STILL couldn’t push more than 60 km into the Georgian territory and had to plead for cease fire with President M. Saakashville.. By shelling Georgia with bombs (why didn’t you comment on my second cousins being killed at such a young age by your Russian-released bombs, you bloodthirsty baby murderer?), you Russians have accomplished NOTHING – other than the hatred and loathing that you’ve evoked in the hearts of Georgians from all walks of life – from those studying art and science in America to the old babushkas in some remote Caucasian villages. Shame on you and your people Stas - you have attacked an innocent country and killed scores of its most defenseless people: children and women.

Stanislav said...

@Piotr

You should know filthy liars, since you are one for sure. Scores of women and children were the ones killed by Georgians, as the EU reports and individual witness reports by EU observers have testified.

As for Putin's comments, considering you warmongering twit have supported invading one nation after another, you should be the one speaking. Who has gone around attacking other nations for the past 20 years, be it with troops, bombers or drone planes and missiles? Eh? YOU and your darling elites for whom you whore.

Is that how you keep your job? Or are you gaming for a government appointment?

As for the 60km, I do not remember anyone pleading with your fag boy Misha for peace, but quite the other way, the Anglos were the ones screaming ( and I am sure you were petting very hard to calm them down) to get Russia to stop.

Either way, you are a self loathing liar and whore and nothing more.

Gregor said...

Piotr
FSB must have hacked into Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian-Georgian_War_2008

'Georgian government claims 228 civilians dead or missing.'

As it is, I entirely disagree with Stas here. I do not see what Russia would have achieved by taking over Georgia. Most Georgians are anti-Russian and have been fed anti-Russian, ahistorical gobbledegook about the USSR. Like the Poles, Ukrainians etc they are convinced by the media that they would be utopian nations were it not for the USSR.

As Georgia demographically implodes, and Turkey swells, the Georgians will be looking for Russian help in future decades. The Turks may be fine allies when they are helping with oil supplies, but seeing what happened to the Armenians (some of the bravest soldiers in the Ottoman army) and the Greeks (the most enterprising of the Ottoman citizens) they will want to keep their distance. But for the time being it is a simple fact that Saakashvilli is popular and the Georgians have delusions about how much help they will get from their Western 'allies'.

Piotr P. said...

@Gregor;
I agree that Georgia is of any need to the US ONLY as a proverbial red rug to irritate the bull (Russia); but do you really naively believe Russians care about Georgia any more than that?! C’mon, wake up, boy! Georgia is of interest to only her own people, PLUS, perhaps, the immediate neighbors (Russia included, I admit); but the later are after her beauty and riches, NOT the best interest (well-being) of her people. That’s why the Georgian ROTC recruits practicing their bygone skills in Ohio – they understand better than any of you that the future of their country is in their own hands. Prez. Saakashvilli, whatever the blood-sucking baby-killer Stas is saying, enjoys immense (82%) popularity among his own people precisely because of what Stas had the guts to admit – the end to the notorious corruption, the clean streets, the order and prosperity Georgians finally enjoy. No wonder he’s been effective – he is the product of the American education, which is the best in the world: hard work, honesty, integrity, and the rule of law.

Stanislav said...

@Piotr

Do you actually believe half the crap your write? Rule of Law? The US and UK brought down the entire world finance with blatent corruption and lies...corporate and government corruption on such a level as never seen before in human history. The biggest ponzi schemes too, many of which still run.

He is a US lawyer, which is a translation for lying sleaze. The US is the most sue happy nation in the world, with run away procedures. A survey of European business leaders found most would rather risk Russian corruption than US "law" and lawyers.

As for Georgia, Russian money built the infrastructure and since 1 in 4 lives in Russia (most immigrating post 1991) and not Europe, Ukraine or US, it rather says a lot of whom is whom and who prefers to be where.

As for Saakashvili, yes he is so pure that he arrested all the opposition heads 2 weeks before the elections, last year...from the monarchists to the communists, everyone. His party dominates with 97% of the vote, beating opposition heads...hundreds were sent to the hospital just in the past 3 months and a thousand during the last big rallies in Nov 2007.

His own former defense minister has assylum in France for fear for his life for exposing the murders of opponents and former allies your saint has issued.

If you reflect your hero, that says much about your own personality and corruption of soul.

Even the one loan opposition TV station, owned by Murdock, was shut down and its staff beaten with clubs after they gave an opposition leader TV time.

I guess that is why you like Obama, he will bring you the same style of "Freedom".

Stanislav said...

@Piotr

Saakashvili has 82% popularity?

Have you and the truth ever met? Yes, one more lie of yours to send down to Hell.

FROM YOUR OWN CFR

---Elizabeth Fuller, an expert on Georgian affairs, says despite his apparent reelection as Georgia’s president, Mikhail Saakashvili finds his popularity flagging. Fuller, an analyst for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL), the U.S.-funded foreign language broadcaster, points to the fact that Saakashvili reportedly won about 52 percent of the vote on Sunday, which translates to about 27 percent of the electorate.---

Saakashvili’s description of the vote was “a landslide,” but it was definitely not the endorsement he was presumably hoping for in November when he scheduled the elections. The voter turnout was just 56 percent. Of that 56 percent, around 51 percent, or perhaps a bit more, voted for Saakashvili. That translates into 26 or 27 percent of the potential voters who actually chose to endorse him. If you compare that with the 2004 elections, the voter turnout was almost 90 percent and Saakashvili got 96 percent of the vote.

--The primary reason why people are disillusioned with Saakashvili is because he didn’t deliver on the promises he made in 2004. He has not made major inroads in reducing poverty. He has not yet restored Georgia’s control of the breakaway provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He has done a certain amount to crack down on lower level corruption such as traffic cops shaking people down, demanding five dollars here and ten dollars there. But the perception among a lot of people is that just like his predecessor, Eduard Shevardnadze, Saakashvili has turned a blind eye to corruption amongst his closest associates. One of the major scandals of the past couple of years was the murder of a young banker who got into an argument in a bar in Tbilisi with certain high placed members of the interior ministry. The unfortunate young man was found the next morning beaten up with his throat cut. In a normal democracy, if the interior ministry was implicated, the minister would have resigned. The minister happens to be one of Saakashvili’s closest cronies, and still occupies his post---

http://www.cfr.org/publication/15185/

Stanislav said...

@Piotr

From Newsweek:

---A Coup for the Kremlin

Georgians want better relations with Russia, which won't bend till Saakashvili goes. He may have to.

Five years ago, tens of thousands of Georgians took to the streets to overthrow a corrupt, pro-Russian government and put a bright, young, American-educated lawyer into power. It was a heady and hopeful time—not just for Georgia, but for a swath of post-Soviet countries that had gained nominal independence but were still mired in crony capitalism and political dependence on Moscow. Georgia's new leader, Mikheil Saakashvili, was "energetic, well educated —he liked to take risks," remembers Nino Burzhanadze, one of his closest allies during the Rose Revolution. "He had 100 percent support in his country and practically 100 percent support in the West —no other president in the world has ever had the chances that President Saakashvili had."

Now Saakashvili's pro-Western project, which included joining NATO, creating an open society, weeding out corruption and reforming the economy, is coming apart. In early April thousands of demonstrators gathered again in Tbilisi, this time not to support the president but to demand his resignation. They threw rabbit food at the presidential residence and called Saakashvili a coward for losing last summer's war against Russia, and said he brought disaster on Georgia's head by arrogantly confronting its big neighbor. Popular disgust with the war has become a trap for Saakashvili, with the vast majority of Georgians saying they want better relations with Russia, and Moscow saying that won't happen while Saakashvili is still in power.

That may not be much longer. Since the war ended, Saakashvili's popularity rating has slipped from 80 percent to 30 percent, and poor relations with Russia have made the economic downturn particularly painful. Three years ago, Russia began to cut off the trade in wine and agricultural goods from Georgia, and it completely stopped cross-border trade after the war, translating into a 70 percent drop in Georgian exports. Foreign investment has also plummeted, from $525 million in the second quarter of 2008 to $188 million in the fourth quarter.

Signs of Saakashvili's struggle to make good on his economic promises are everywhere. In Kutaisi, Georgia's second-biggest city (population: 200,000), the narrow, pedestrian, cobblestoned streets of the city center resemble Tallinn, Estonia, with freshly painted buildings, boutique cafés and restored churches, but tap water runs for less than three hours every other day and the city's Soviet-era factories went bankrupt in the 1990s. "Look behind the bright façade and you will see how rotten and poor our city is," says Tsisfer Kansheli, a former factory manager.

More worryingly for Saakashvili, many are now speaking nostalgically of the days of free trade with Moscow. "My family sold fruit and vegetables to Russia for decades—we want to have the border open for trade again," says Bela Banzeladze, an unemployed exporter. At Gori State University, students worried that Saakashvili had put too much faith in the West. "Was our president wrong by choosing his strategic partners?" wonders Edgar Khasakhashvili, a law student and an ethnic-Georgian refugee from South Ossetia.

Saakashvili is feeling increasingly isolated. Georgian officials seem unnerved by the Obama administration's offer to "reset" relations with Moscow—and its perceived retreat from support for Georgia's entry into NATO. Last week Georgian officials met with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who confirmed U.S. plans to deepen cooperation with Georgia on military training. Meanwhile, the U.S. Congress is set to approve $242.5 million in aid this month, but U.S. subsidies won't substitute for full trade relations with Russia—something Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has made clear won't happen while Saakashvili is in power.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/194608

Mama Sue said...

You sound just like some in the US (I am a US citizen) When will people learn that might does not make right? Empires are a thing of the past, thus we must try for understanding.

alibi said...

@Piotr: “Your so-called all-volunteer Russian army… overwhelming the Georgians by 5 to 1 STILL couldn’t push more than 60 km into the Georgian territory and had to plead for cease fire with President M. Saakashville..

That’s funny, I’ve read that it was a one million Russian army that raped the brave 30000 Georgian warriors.
And also I’ve heard that Pentagon acknowledged that by August 11 Georgian border was crossed by about 9000 Russian troops. And 3000 of those troops didn’t get to fire a shot do to absent of the opposition. True the Russians had a stone age gun sights that might have been why they couldn’t find the Georgian warriors. Or it might have been because the Georgians were trained by the NATO standards so engaging an enemy wasn’t in their combat dictionary.

Funny, but the Georgians don’t seem to have any shame. They were facing invaders in their Motherland. They had spent billions on their new shiny army. They had it trained and equipped for years by the Israelis, Turks, Americans, Germans, French Georgia had 30000+ strong military forces plus additional 40000+ reservists. They had support of the entire western world. And they were against just 9000+ Russian conscripts who were surely untrained, undernourished and most likely half drunk raiding on old rusty tanks. And the entire Georgian army ceased to exist in just 5 days without even trying to put up a decent fight. I mean - fuck Vietnam and Afghanistan - those were foreign countries. We are talking about Georgian Motherland. Jesus. What a shame.
But what’s worse. The Georgians instead of shutting up and trying to leave with this disgrace for a few generations are now crying bloody murder. They crying that the entire Russian /read Soviet/ mighty army ruthlessly crushed down heroic Georgian resistance. We read that it were tens of thousands of troops ravaging the country. We hear that the entire nation stood up against the invaders. But of course one million troops is too much for the 30000 legendary warriors. If it were just five-six hundred thousand Russians than for sure they would have been smashed and kicked out of Georgia. Maybe even seven hundred but it was one million of them. Jeez. What a shame.

Gavrick said...

Slava,

I heard that the war was started by the Georgians attacking and killing the Russian peacekeepers in their sleep.

Could you elaborate?

SIncerely,

Gary Gavril

hamilton x said...

I am quite familiar with the tedious stupidity of Piotr P but his callousness to the Georgian people surprised even me. To the USA Georgia is a piece of real estate for the Ceyhan project. Saakashvili is considered a buffoon and held in same contempt we reserve for all our puppets. The man is a complete stooge. NATO and the USA are NEVER going to war with Russia over pathetic Georgia and the USA only cares to have Turkey as an ally in the area. Armenia is an excellent example of the necessity and utility of an alliance with Russia as opposed to the stupidity of trying to join NATO. Armenia has expanded since 1991 while Georgia continues to shrink. My kind advice to Georgians is to drop NATO,kick out our stooge and re-orient with Moscow. The ROC patriarch has offered his help in reconciliation.

Stanislav said...

@Hamilton

Piotr has gone into mental melt down and has turned to insulting everyone and calling them homosexuals and such and such.....thus I began to simply reject his comments. It is typical of his kind: when standing on a weak case, insult your opponents, attack their character, etc...anything but cover the real issue.

John Clark said...

It's hard to glean the truth from diametrically opposing viewpoints concerning the war in Georgia I am just an American trying to get a handle on your discussion but what I've read so far as far as US interest in the area is concerning the oil pipeline and maintaining an alternative to Arab oil dependency.
We've got our own problems with our elected officials violating their oath of office and throwing out the rulebook for themselves (U.S. Constitution) and making it up as they go usurping jurisdiction and influence into areas they have no authority to be meddling in, Bush administration laid the foundation for the now Obama administration to take our country down the road to socialism not exactly the change people were expecting when they voted for this closet Marxist who has surrounded himself with czars and advisers at the word radical doesn't begin to cover, Americans are beginning to wake up I think we will fix that mistake next election because the American people bought a pig in a poke.

Looking back we should've been helping the Russians against the mujahedin in Afghanistan because radical Islam is shaping up to be all of our problems and US policy helped to create the Frankenstein monster that turned back on us on 9/11. I daresay if the American government had been following the Constitution many of the foreign entanglements we found ourselves in would never of happened.

We now have self-avowed Communists extremely influential in our executive branch of government in the image of Khrushchev pounding his shoe on the podium exclaiming they will bury us comes to mind, up to this point we have been taken without firing a shot but a large portion of the American population is waking up if you been following the news about the extremely heated town hall meetings, it's funny that the national Socialist party (Democrats) are calling those of us at these meetings Nazi but without the swastika these people are supposed to be working for us but the truth is that hasn't been for a long time because the speaker of the house has a swastika on her sleeve she just refuses to see it.